The Iron Table
The Iron Table
Death Doesn't Play Fair: Why The Good Get Taken & Bad Left Alone?
Death doesn't play fair. It takes the good, leaves the wicked, and rarely provides explanations. How do we make sense of loss when nothing seems to make sense?
As we face an increasing wave of loss—from celebrities we've watched our whole lives to beloved friends and family members—the men of The Iron Table dive deep into grief, faith, and the questions that keep us awake at night. This raw, honest conversation explores why it often feels like good people die young while others get a pass, and how we can navigate the murky waters of mourning without drowning in despair.
The hosts share personal reflections on recent losses, including Malcolm-Jamal Warner, while examining the biblical perspective on suffering. Does God take certain people because He knows their passing will wake us up to our own mortality? Is death designed to push us closer to faith or further away? Keith offers a powerful distinction between "questioning God" and "asking God questions," giving listeners permission to bring their honest pain before the Creator without feeling spiritually inadequate.
Drawing from scripture, personal experience, and counseling wisdom, the conversation offers practical guidance for those who grieve. Danny reminds us that "the path to comfort comes through mourning," while Steve encourages listeners to develop a relationship with God before tragedy strikes rather than trying to build that foundation in the midst of pain. The hosts acknowledge that grief becomes particularly difficult when death doesn't make sense, yet even in those moments, community support and faith can sustain us.
Whether you're currently walking through the valley of the shadow or want to prepare for the inevitable losses that come with living, this episode provides both comfort and challenge. Join Bryant, Keith, Danny, and Steve as they demonstrate how iron truly sharpens iron through life's most difficult conversations.
Welcome to the iron table, where iron sharpens iron. So should men sharpen men. I'm your host, bryant, and I'm joined by my boys, keith, danny and Steve. We are bringing you truth with a side of humor loaded with accountability and thought. We now bring you to our program already in progress. Good evening, it's the Iron Table, where iron sharpens iron. It always gets a hot reaction. Segments Can't read today. We appreciate the talents and crafts of musicians and only use their music to honor their gift. You can find us at our on Buzzsprouts irontablebuzzsproutscom. You can find us also on Google Podcasts, apple Podcasts, amazon Music and YouTube. Just search for the Iron Table. Good evening, fellas. It's been a while. I think it's been I think about three weeks since the last time we talked. Just before we get into tonight's discussion, I just want to go through and just see how we're all doing. So doesn't matter who goes first, I will be going last.
Speaker 3:So Well, I'll go. First I'll say that I am definitely doing well, a little weary from traveling across the country. Left yesterday Got here today to celebrate Pop's 70th birthday, and so we were able to pull it off. It was very entertaining, like we were talking about in the pre-show. Piling Count got a little, I don't know how indoors Brian calls it asbestos, but yeahateful to be able to share flowers while those we love can still smell them Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:That part.
Speaker 1:I've been chilling over here. Everything's been pretty cool. It's been peaceful so far, Nothing much going on other than just kind of assessing how people put themselves in different situations when it comes to relationships and couples. It's kind of crazy how they don't see it coming. You try to warn, but you know the heart wants what it wants, right, you ask for certain things, you get it. It may not be in. For certain things you get it. So it may not be in God's plan, but it is what they want to do. So you got to let people do it.
Speaker 4:I'm blessed, holly of the most high God, I'm alive, and what's that?
Speaker 2:shirt say it says we out.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, that's it, says Harriet.
Speaker 2:Tubman, harriet Tubman, underground Railroad Collection.
Speaker 4:So I'm blessed. I'm glad to Busy, but it's what I prayed for, so I can't even be mad. That's what's up.
Speaker 2:Water is so refreshing. So it's been about three weeks since we had the last iron table, and so what happened was that. I got ganged up on was that I got?
Speaker 2:ganged up on. Somebody talked about my, my exercise level and if they had to, if they didn't exercise for like two weeks, they look like me. Our last guest, you know was was very mean, but it got through to me and I started to get on a healthier journey, started drinking water so I wouldn't have that hobo pee. Yeah, hobo pee. Oh, man, I've been, I would. I would tell y'all who I got this water bottle from, but they ain't pay it, so they're not getting any free. But I'll just say that the water that I've been drinking doesn't taste like water, but it is water. I don't have to add any coloring. I'm drinking maybe about 60 to 80 ounces a day. I'm doing that. I'm walking more. I think the other day I hit 20,000 steps. You cheated.
Speaker 1:I know what you did. You cheated, I think the other day I hit 20,000 steps. Today is I know what you did you cheated.
Speaker 2:I didn't cheat. I walked them steps.
Speaker 1:Look, I told them, I figured out what they do. They be leaving them doggone watches on their hands when they be having the happy, happy, joy, joy time. With the message you get a whole bunch of steps in and you kick that watch.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, I could use that type of compliment, but no, I was not using it for that.
Speaker 4:Happy joy, joy, that's funny.
Speaker 3:Two happy two joy.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, okay. And then two people in my house. It was their birthday this week, so the young clone turned 10.
Speaker 3:Double digits.
Speaker 2:Yeah, double digits now. So you know he's going to. His eyes are going to be open when it comes time to cutting that grass.
Speaker 4:Because I'm like okay, it's your turn now.
Speaker 2:You know, just doing a, a straight line, I'll clean it up after you've done what you're supposed to do. But, like y'all said, I'm kind of blessed, highly favored, thankful to um be able to make some positive changes um, in my life, and I know y'all are. You know, as Danny Eyebrow said when I said I was drinking water, you know he's been with me on my water journey, more like a Boyz II Men song when them wells run dry. That's how much water I was drinking. But I've changed. I have changed. I've only had one soda in three weeks. Yeah, I just look at it and I'm like, no, let me just go ahead and get this water. So I've been drinking. I got four new water bottles. Keep one in the car, one upstairs, one downstairs and one at work. That way there's no excuses for not drinking water. So no more hobo pee, no more dark brown pee. We go back to the regular colors clear and yellow, light yellow. Alright, so enough of what we have been doing.
Speaker 2:This has been an interesting week. Nonetheless, we've lost some people. There was Malcolm Jamal Warner was the first. Theo Huxtable played in a lot of different shows. I think he might have been in some movies. He was even in a rap video early on back when rap was very syncopated, kind of nursery rhyme-ish, and he was close to our age, I want to say he was like 54. So a lot of people were writing that it felt like you lost a brother, it felt like you lost someone that you watched growing up. Then there was, I think, ozzy Osbourne. I really didn't listen to him. I did have Guitar Hero, and Crazy Train was the only song I knew that he did, but apparently he had a pretty long music career. And then there was Hulk Hogan. Now he said some questionable things later on in life, but in the 80s and there's.
Speaker 2:I think every young male was probably doing some type of wrestling move at home, jumping off of furniture, trying to put friends in um, you know, put that leg drop on him. Or figure four for those who with WCW but for WWF, or back then WWF, now WWE, he was an icon. He was what put wrestling on the map. He was in Rocky. Was it Rocky 3? Yeah, he was in Rocky 3. It's Clubber Lang. We've been losing a lot of.
Speaker 4:Mr T was Clubber Lang.
Speaker 2:I know Mr T was Clubber Lang, he was Thunder Lips. I didn't want to say that, calling no other man Thunder Lips.
Speaker 4:You don't know what he's talking about. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, nonetheless, we have experienced, experienced some, some loss, um, and it's it sucks. I mean, we're at an age now where those who we have, uh, who we cared for and and they've really poured into us, they are leaving, leaving this earth, and I know everyone's spiritual background, but they're not here with us. I'll just say that. But I think today I got a chance to go to a very dear friend, 70th birthday celebration, and it was heartwarming to see, just hear, the different stories and the consistency behind it that he was there or he is there whenever you call you provide care in everyone's unique way. And so today I kind of wanted to talk about, you know, just this grief, um, and what does that look like? Um, and you know, in dealing with grief, you know, just put this question out here. You know, why does it look like the good people are dying and the bad ones are getting a pass? I don't know. Know, we may think it's bad, but it just seems like a lot of good people, a lot of influential people, are passing away. I know, before we answer that question, I'll give kind of a background.
Speaker 2:Keith and I were talking this week and we were talking about just why certain people are the ones that are dying. And I told him. I said I believe that God takes certain people because he knows, if he took someone else we wouldn't feel it. We wouldn't. It wouldn't cause us to think about our own fragility, our own humanity and really think about, you know, looking at ourselves and if we're on the right side. I had a very good friend at the boarding school I went to Pine Forge Academy who I thought I'd have an opportunity to see him. He was murdered at the age of 20, I believe Name was Joshua Jerome Livingston and I was like why? It seems senseless. But when I had a chance to go to his funeral, I saw how many people came out. I mean, the church was packed. There was no, there was standing room only. And it wasn't a small church, it was a pretty medium sized church.
Speaker 2:And I thought about, I was like you know, God used him in order to impact all of those lives. And so I wonder, you know the same like Malcolm Jamal Warner? I mean, we don't know him, but we kind of grew up with him, him but we kind of grew up with him. Is this passing like a wake-up call? How did you guys, when you heard it?
Speaker 3:how did you feel? What went through your mind? I'll say for me, every passing is a wake-up call. The living know that they will die. I can be affected by somebody's death and me not know them, just because it reminds me of just the seriousness of life. I was on two planes in the last 24 hours and each time that plane touches the ground I'm like it could have been different.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it's just morbid that plane touches the ground.
Speaker 3:I'm like it could have been different Exactly, and I don't know if it's just morbid, but I think that it's. For me it's kind of realistic to just kind of keep in perspective the fact that tomorrow is not promised and I've got to focus on living life today while I can. Yesterday is gone, tomorrow may never exist. All I have is this moment. It's a gift. That's why it's called present and uh, for for me, I just really try to look at it through that lens, because, I don't know, death is usually a lot closer than you think it is. But for the grace of God.
Speaker 4:But for the grace of God amen.
Speaker 1:You know, I think for me it's I'll piggyback on what Danny was saying is that you know, even hearing traffic deaths, you know, a lot of times when you listen to the news and you hear, oh, you know, such and such was killed on the freeway X, y and Z, I mean for me, you know, that kind of hits. I kind of feel that because, again, it could have been me, it could have been a loved one, it could have been somebody that I know. But even after, at the end of the day, that's still it's a reminder at the end of the day that, yeah, that person was human, you're human. They're no longer here, they're no longer experiencing this particular earth at this point in time. So they, you know it gets me into the state of mind of just, you know, definitely being thankful but also making sure that I'm doing what I'm supposed to do while I'm still here, because at any point in time, you know, it could be, it could be the end, you know.
Speaker 1:So, not particularly with with these individuals' deaths, you know, because I, to me, no one person, regardless if they're, you know, particular stature or whatever, should mean more and you will hope not. But still, like said, we knew this, we knew these people versus, you know, seeing them on a screen, we didn't really know them. Know them, you know, but still, at the end of the day, it's another human being that has. You know that. That has passed away. So everybody should feel that way. You know, I'm not saying you know, just be boohoo, x, y and z, but still feel some type of like hey, that other thing that just died was just like me. You know a, just be boo-hoo and X, y and Z, but still feel some type of like hey, that other thing that just died was just like me. You know, a human being. And they're no longer here. What is God trying to show me out of this situation? Or what is God trying to even show me out of how I feel about this right now?
Speaker 2:Elder. Come on, you seem like you about to hit us with something.
Speaker 4:No, no, mixed emotions Again. Didn't know this man personally, but you know, being a fan of his work, not just, and that's just it. There are certain things that I mean I'm just talking about the Cosby show but it felt like you know, like you said, I normally don't get worked up over celebrities, death, because, again, like Steve said, we got people dying right next to us every day, but this one I couldn't help, you know, make for some level of contemplation, for a lot of different reasons. It is a reminder that this is probably the beginning of a lot of disappointments we're about to suffer, based on just the state of the world, how people are living, the things that are happening all over the world, but in, but, but in our own country. So it's, you know, preparing ourselves for what else is to come. And then, why are the good people here? That's because God won't let me have the steering wheel, because I drive this.
Speaker 3:God give it to me.
Speaker 4:I'll fix it. I'll fix the list, but his ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts. So I've watched a lot of people who I could not understand and I still don't understand. I will never pretend to understand because so, but I do know that there are reasons. I believe, like you said, where God is trying to get the attention of some of us who would never see the need for change if we did not see certain things happen in the lives, if it did not rain on the good, on the righteous and the unrighteous. I'll put it that way. So death is a is just as natural as life and it, but it does. I understand why it can become numbing, though, but it does. I understand why it can become numbing, though.
Speaker 4:I remember my grandmother before she passed, she outlived all her siblings and all her friends and she had when, when it was finally her time, she was ready because she's like I'm here and it's nice, but I'm good Basically. If it comes to me today, I'm good Basically. If it comes from me today, I'm good. And so, you know, there was a peace to some degree when she did pass, because she had lived a life, a long life, that she, you know, all the people that she cared about the most were no longer here. So there are a lot of conundrums to death. I mean, sometimes we want that long, happy life to see kids, great grandkids, great, great grandkids, and then sometimes we, we, we tired, we did, we mad, because we woke up this morning and we got to get through the day. So, saying all that to say, you know, death has a way of working on us that does get our attention and, like you said, I believe that that's not by accident, that's my design.
Speaker 1:Oh, most definitely. You know I've got to. I've always had this thing about like, if I ever meet like a really big celebrity, like a celebrity that's known across the world, you know, if I get a chance to ask them a particular question, you know I would ask them this question, hopefully don't wear them out. But you know I've always thought about like, hey, when people are, you know, think about passing, or they're just thinking about their life in general and we're thinking about like, will they be remembered? You know, will they? Who will remember them? Who will even care if they die?
Speaker 1:And you know, sometimes, being a celebrity, being somebody that's known so worldwide, and having an understanding that if I die, being the celebrity that I am, the world, will I say let's take a Kevin Hart, for example. You know he's known throughout the whole entire world. If he dies, the whole world is going to know this individual has passed and people that have never met this man at all are going to feel a certain way. How does that sit with certain celebrities Knowing that so many people around the planet that have not even met you?
Speaker 1:are going to see you. Versus us, we'll have our loved ones more, but then also versus the person that may not have any loved ones. It's always about that hey, you know, will you be remembered or who will care if you pass, who will be at your funeral? You know, it's this really tricky question to me. It's a tricky subject period, you know, but it's, I think that would be fascinating to find, find out, like what's their thought process of even understanding, like you know, but it's, I think that would be fascinating to find out, like what's their thought process of even understanding. Like you know, for lebron james died, the whole world will stop for a second and and mourn this man. But being a human being and having the power to know that, hey, the world may stop, even, but for a second to mourn my life, I wonder how that, like, if people, like, if celebrities kind of knew that, like or really take that in, how they sit with that or how they even deal with it or they even think about it.
Speaker 2:I'm sure they think about it. I mean, nowadays you've got to have a squeaky clean, because they will, because people will find anything. As soon as you're gone, they will find stuff I think about. The most publicized deaths are usually what is it? The Pope? I think Michael Jackson had a pretty big, and when he was alive people were passing out crying and. But I'm sure you know with anyone, you know the people that matter the most.
Speaker 4:You know where you stand with them the small funerals had people showing up to announce he loved me first and these are my kids. I had a widow Right. He got the whole neighborhood in the uproar when all 17 families show up.
Speaker 2:That's not like in 1950. Deadbeat Daddy or something.
Speaker 4:So, listen, he may not have the numbers that Michael Jackson and the Pope are doing, but I've seen some hometown people have some interesting funeral. Like you said, everything comes out to light. The timing is just bad. It's not at the funeral.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm just going to say the other side of that was bad people. Why are they here? If somebody was going to get hit by the bus, come on. Why got to be the one who's feeding the orphans and over here giving scholarships to kids, and so that's kind of a conundrum that Solomon kind of talked about in the book of Ecclesiastes yes, he did. And David also talked about in Psalm. There's two Psalms, one Asaph wrote and one David wrote, I don't know which one 37 and 73. 37 and 73, and 73. Both of those songs they struggling with the fact that, hey, I'm over here trying to do right, and over there this dude is flourishing like a, a native tree in its, uh, a green leaf in its native soil. He's all this poetic language. It's just like in vain I've kept my life In vain. I'm trying to do good. They over here hoeing and smoking and all Ain't nothing wrong with them.
Speaker 3:Over here we're trying to do what's right and we're struggling.
Speaker 1:It doesn't seem fair it doesn't seem fair.
Speaker 3:It doesn't seem fair, and that's a part of life that sometimes is really difficult to understand. To wrap our minds around and I would argue there's more people who become atheists really just around some of these similar concepts that there are no easy answers, there's really more questions and if you're asking a bad question, oftentimes you're going to really get to some sucky answers and you can get into this place where it's just like ain't no way that there is a being up in the sky who would let this evil guy prosper and be good and this good person over here who I've been praying that they will be able to recover, that they will be able to have a prosperous life. They're good. Surely God's going to bless the people who are trying to do right, isn't he?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:A lot of times we see that flip-flop and it causes us to kind of go on a tailspin and at worst people end up not justifying it with the fact that there's no way there can be a God, because if there was a God he wouldn't let that happen. This happens Exactly.
Speaker 1:I have. Some of my clients have lost their parents. I've had some recent clients that have lost their parents and I strategically wait a while to talk about God in that instance, because in no shape or form can I say, hey, you know, just, everything will be okay, just pray to God X, y and Z. Because in reality it doesn't look like it makes any sense whatsoever that everybody is still here but my parent isn't here, or everybody is here but my loved one isn't here. So at that point in time, you know sometimes telling people just pray, pray to god, that don't work and that actually, like you said, danny, run them away, but like, oh no, this don't make sense at all, this doesn't, this doesn't. So you're 100 right about that so what do you do?
Speaker 2:like, how do you handle grief? Or and I know we said that's probably a bad question like you know how, like me, I don't believe. I believe that God has to let this play out, because Satan is going to say you intervened before seeing if they would choose you, and if you keep rescuing them from their problems, then they won't. It's not a freedom of choice, it's, you know, you just made it easy. Of course, they're going to go with this so that there's going to be, you know, the story of redemption just has to continue, and so there's going to be some, some bad times. I don't think. I don't think anywhere in the Bible did it say you're not going to experience. Something I've always questioned, you know, is the Bible written where we're supposed to wait and get our, our blessings in the hereafter instead of really striving to get them now? That's not this conversation for today.
Speaker 1:That's a very good question, man, because I'm thinking about that gratification.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, that's, that's a very good question, man, because I've even been thinking about that myself.
Speaker 1:Man, that's a real good question and it's weird because it's like you know, you look back in the Bible and it's like you know, thinking about some of the things and the miracles and the signs, and God walking and sending angels, and a lot of those human beings saw all these particular things that we wish that we could get.
Speaker 1:I wish God would we hear God's voice like we're hearing our voices Now. I wish God would send angels and you know that this is an angel I wish God would send a burning, all these particular things, and yet they still didn't believe. They saw all those miracles, all these plagues and they still didn't believe. So you know, even in that sense where you know, if the devil and God is having a conversation, it's like, well, you know you saved them and you know why would they not believe? Even when he did it, we didn't believe, you know. So it's kind of like it's something that I wish would happen. But then again, just looking back on history in the Bible, like it could happen and guess what, we could just say no, that ain't God. And then God sent his son again and we kill him again.
Speaker 2:Right, don't put me in that we.
Speaker 3:And just real fast on what Steve just kind of started to go in. Not that this is a Bible story or anything, but whenever people get their mind kind of spinning because of this question of why bad things happen to good people, I always like to bring up Jesus. If ever there was anybody who didn't deserve nothing bad to happen to them, Jesus a lot of bad happened to them.
Speaker 4:Who are we?
Speaker 3:Who are we? I'm just trying to tell you like I'm not Jesus, I'm nowhere close. And if they did that to him, why do I think that bad things won't happen to me? He didn't do anything to anyone ever but good. And so in this world we sometimes just lose sight of the fact that sometimes you know what Bad things do happen to good people. Sometimes the people who do the most evil seem like they're prospering, but it's just for a season, because even with Jesus, that mistreatment, it was just for a season. He wasn't buried, he was planted, he was the first fruits of something that was so much bigger than that here and now, and I believe even going back to like josh and his death and talking about how many people kind of were impacted by his life, um, and, and the birthday celebration that we had today, it's like you know what we're all this, one big giant web of connections and you never know what impact you're having on somebody in life or in death.
Speaker 2:Well, I would like to know before.
Speaker 3:I'm gone.
Speaker 4:There's no way to know. There's no way to know.
Speaker 2:Or a way to shut down my hopes and dreams.
Speaker 4:I know, I know, but I gave you hopes and dreams. I know, I know, but I know because it gave you some heartache. I know.
Speaker 2:I mean, aren't you supposed to be nurturing and caring?
Speaker 4:No, it's possible to find out from some people. But then, like, do people really tell you the truth when you're here sometimes, or even if, stephen I know, even when people die and you're asked to come to their funeral and you're asked to get up and say nice things about them, even though they've done nothing nice in this world?
Speaker 2:They've done nothing nice in this world, so should I not ask you to say something at mine?
Speaker 4:Uh-oh.
Speaker 2:I said should I not ask you to say something at mine? Here we go.
Speaker 4:I didn't't hear it.
Speaker 2:It froze a little bit no, I was saying, should I not ask you to say something at mine, because it was like some people, you know they don't deserve it.
Speaker 4:No, some people will actually come to the funeral or and say something nice on behalf of someone, and that someone may not have been the best person and right and then so. So sometimes people get up and they say what comes to mind, but they don't really say how they truly feel. So it's possible to hear nice things about yourself, but are people being honest? And so I'm the type of person if you're not going to be honest, you ain't got to say nothing. Be honest, tell both sides. He was a great guy. Dot dot dot. He won't even say it. No, I was thinking about my Say less or more.
Speaker 4:More. Again, say less or more, all right, but I don't. But again, while you're live, it's good to get your roses. I prefer to give people their flowers now, like again, like me, because even I missed it today. But you know, just thinking about wes, like I mean, I know you know pops for danny, but that's also bonus pops for myself, like a lot of us.
Speaker 4:He was, he was the person we go to even now to still ask questions about technology, life, money, you name it. I know I could call him and ask him anything and he's going to tell me what he knows. He's like hey, that's what I know, like you will do what you will, but he's always been supportive, always been, you know, helpful, always been a parent figure. So it's, it's one of those things that All of us there's duality, and so I mean we love him for that. But so we can celebrate people. My point is we can celebrate people for the time that they're here and they're making an impact, because, again, it's crazy, we think we got to honor the old people before they go, we dying before, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 4:You know, we need to stay before we're gone. I'm honest.
Speaker 1:But you know what, man? I got a question for y'all, though, and this is going to sound really weird. But if we truly believe in everything that the Bible says and what God promises, is it better or is it selfish? Is it better for us to be with God in heaven than be here on earth?
Speaker 3:I would say Paul kind of talks about it. It's like which is better? You know, to live is Christ, to die is gain. It's like whatever happens, it's like God, what you want, how can I best serve you? And so, for me, the question is how can I best serve God? While I'm here, while I have breath, I'm going to seek to live my life in a way that improves the little corner that I'm in.
Speaker 3:You know, there's something that I can do, that recognizing his sovereignty, and that you know what he's not going to allow, something that isn't going to ultimately work out together for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose. Like, okay, so if I'm still here, it's because I still got work to do. You ain't dead, because god's not done, he's's not done with what you're doing in your life. And so every day that we wake up, I believe it should be very missional and it's like OK, what am I supposed to be doing today? How can I make sure that he's not just my savior from sin, he's the Lord of my life? And I'm like what do you need me to accomplish? Who do you need me to bless, to reach, to teach, to love, to show, to grow, because if you're still here for me, it's because God still has work for you to do.
Speaker 1:And with that answer, though, god still has work for you to do. And with that answer, though, can we use that, then, to kind of help us deal with grief of other people having an understanding that God has now called this person home. This person is now with God. They're not having to deal with some of this stuff. They fulfill their purpose of what God wanted them to do. I got to be okay with God's plan, and I know that can be kind of very hard to a tough pill to swallow, but, you know, can we sometimes use that to help us deal with some of these things that we feel like may not be fair.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll say my spiritual walk and belief when someone passes, while I believe the spirit because you know our spirit is a gift from God that that returns, but I am. I am dead, I am sleep, I am waiting for his second coming to be resurrected, so I'm not in heaven with him. My aspirations are always to go there because I don't want to be consumed by fire. But let me say this I do believe that hell's consuming fire is God's last love gift to us, those that will perish. And it's going to sound twisted, but if I am a person who is, I'll say, hell-bent on murder, I will be miserable in heaven because I can't kill anyone. If I'm someone that steals, I'm going to be miserable because everything that has value down here is meaningless in heaven. Streets of gold in abundance, like I'm gonna take this. Oh sure, go ahead and have it, I got some more you want.
Speaker 4:I got some more in the back. You want those yeah?
Speaker 2:and I'm like I would be miserable. So instead of me being miserable in what is supposed to be the happiest place in the universe or in existence, boom consumed with fire, just let me just be. But I say all that to say that grief is tough. I think it's tougher if you do not have a spiritual wall Not that it isn't tough that you have if you have, it's just tougher because you're. You got so many questions that no one on earth can answer but God, but you're angry at him for taking what you held valuable when that was never in his plan.
Speaker 2:Sin is a reason why we are suffering. He never wanted that to enter into this world, but it did. And so, again, stuff has to play out. But grief is inevitable, as I mean, what are we gonna live? We're gonna die, right, it's inevitable. How do we? The question was, how do we handle it? I think we just have to just keep it, even if it's a small step forward. You talking to some professionals about it, seeking the counsel or the comfort of your friends, you know, embracing the positive that that the life impact of that person had, instead of wallowing in the moment that they are gone.
Speaker 3:I think you brought up a key, a key point, brian point Brian, just talking about it, just like getting it out. And so to Steve's point. It's just like there's often times when it's somebody close to us, there's some unresolvable questions that you're just like man, but talking our way through it, and Keith says this thing all the time. He says because some people have a problem questioning God. What's the thing you said, keith? Come on, talk to us.
Speaker 4:Don't question God, but ask God questions.
Speaker 3:Make sure you ask God because he can handle it. Yeah, come on, talk to us.
Speaker 2:Keith, what does that look like?
Speaker 4:That's a whole sermon, but I'm going to get you. But I got you Because a lot of times we were raised and told not to question God Like that. God is God and he's Alpha and Omega and you do not question God. So there's a level of respect we got to put on his name. Well, we do understand that his will is his will and there are things beyond our understanding. But there is also God that says come, talk to me, ask me, ask me what you want to know. Sometimes it's written it Knock, ask, seek, find. Like all these things are connected. So we have to come to God and ask for answers. And I hate not that I hate to admit it, I'm glad to admit it it's scary to admit that when I have asked serious questions, god has answered. And it was scary to get the answer. It was scary to get the answer. Stop going to liars for the truth. Why do they keep lying to me, god? Why you keep asking them to tell you the truth?
Speaker 1:Wait, let me do my thing with the frog.
Speaker 4:Because, again, this is in sessions that I have. This is what people are like. When I start asking God questions and he can not sit and I just meditate on his answers, I had to shut up and just and, and, and and write. I had to get like everybody else in the Bible. I had to write this stuff down because it's like what? The problem wasn't them, in some cases it's me so. So I've learned to ask God questions, not in a way that would question his greatness, but in a way that helps me better understand what his will is for my life. So, and he answers. Now the problem is that he sucks. No, I wouldn't do that.
Speaker 1:So can I tell God that he sucks?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't do that.
Speaker 2:You can if you want, can I say at least the situation sucks.
Speaker 4:Read the whole Bible. The whole Bible is that you read the whole.
Speaker 3:Bible. I'm going to just say this when Pine Forge came and did that presentation in Miracle it was the first time that I had this epiphany, but they had a part of I don't know which piece it was, but they had this broad banner across the screen that said every major character in the Bible questioned God. And then they put these words even Jesus. I said wait what no? And then they put it up there. I said wait what no? And then they put it up there.
Speaker 4:My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? I said oh, that is a question.
Speaker 3:And so every major character in the Bible question God. Why do I feel like I can't ask God questions? That doesn't mean he's always going to answer, because even Mary, Martha and with the Lazarus situation, Lord, if you had been here, where would you have been?
Speaker 3:You would have gone and what he said was hey, you know what? Didn't I tell you that you would see the glory? All things are working together. All things aren't good, but they're working together for good, so that Joseph could look at his little scoundrel brothers, who basically left him for dead, and say yo, you meant evil, you were trying to hurt me, and you know what it hurt. It still hurts. I'm wailing so loud they can hear me down at Pharaoh's house.
Speaker 3:But God, he took this crappy situation that I didn't understand, that I couldn't see, that didn't make no sense, grammatically incorrect, on purpose. And now he has now flipped the table and used that mess and turned it into a message, turned it into something good, because that's what God specializes in doing If you give it time, it always works. It's like Novocaine. And we got to get to the point where we trust him enough in the middle of it to know, hey, you know what, this ain't good, but ultimately it's going to be working together for my good. And even though I don't understand it, even though sometimes God don't answer questions like Joe, like Gideon in Judges, chapter six, elijah, elijah, you know it's, some people did not get their questions answered.
Speaker 4:A lot of them didn't. A lot of them didn't lot of them didn't.
Speaker 2:so that reminds okay. So two things. One, danny, thanks for saying that, because it had me think of one of my favorite songs with shirley caesar and friends, where, um, we praise you. Where it says you keep telling god about your problems, where you need to turn around and tell your problems about your God. So I want to say that but were were we raised to? To look at fear when it says fearing the Lord, to be afraid to talk to, question to, and so like I've come to learn that fear meant more of respect, like if I'm going to come to him, I can come to him, but I need to come to him with respect before I, you know, don't come out the side of my neck, you know, saying like God, you suck. I can say this situation sucks, but remember who he is, what he is and what he can do. And fear was kind of like a love, like all right, I honor you, I respect you.
Speaker 4:Right now. But I'm going to be honest. When some people lose their child, they lose their husband or their wife, they lose their job. When they're in crisis mode, it sounds good, but that's not what comes out all the time At all.
Speaker 3:I mean I'll be honest.
Speaker 4:I'm thinking of some people who have lost their adult children. Like I really believe parents should not die before their children. That is a hole.
Speaker 2:You're saying parents should not die. You mean children should not die before their parents.
Speaker 4:No, I meant it the other way. Like parents should not have to bury their children. Parents should not have to bury their children. Children, yeah, that's not have to bury their children, that's a because the we. You almost assume that as a child you're gonna one day bury your parents. That's how, because it's just age. But as a parent who gave birth and raised and reared that child and then you lose that child, it is for some parents it is the worst.
Speaker 2:I don't think it should be all parents, right? I guess there's some parents.
Speaker 3:It depends on the kid, it depends on which kid.
Speaker 1:It depends on which kid, it depends on if that kid was a demon.
Speaker 2:I only got one, so I'm good I don't have to choose.
Speaker 4:I'm tired, never mind. That's a whole other part. It certainly is. I know a couple. Right but when people that they love unexpectedly that pain kicks in. It's hard to go to God. Sometimes people have to take a break from God.
Speaker 3:No, most times Even going through divorce because that's grieving right there. And I remember, like yesterday, there's a friend that three of us kind of know and he was just like yo you're going to question the existence of God when you're going to do this like you're going to be in the valley of the shadow of death and you're like I can't see you, I can't feel you, you must not be real you must not be real.
Speaker 4:You're like I can't see you, I can't feel you, you must not be real. You must not be real, you must not be here. Yeah, I remember One of the truest statements that have ever been said you will question the existence of God during this, and so when you go to God, there's an anger. And even if you try to the reason, I stopped trying to fake again. I'm not trying to be irreverent or disrespectful, but at the same time, at the same time, you already know my heart, so I ain't going to try to be nice when you already know I'm mad at you.
Speaker 4:I'm mad at my life. I'm mad at the people around me. I'm mad that my child is gone. I'm mad that I'm grieving Like. I'm mad that people are dying around me, around me. I'm mad that I'm sick. I'm like, whatever it is, this is terminal. They tell me that this is not going to be healed and I'm a and I'm gonna die with this. So what are we doing right now, god? So I know sometimes we, we, we want to still be right, but the the reality of where we are is that we got to go to god honest, because he already knows where we are anyway and be a little irreverent yeah I almost put my hand on this censor button.
Speaker 2:I didn't know where you were going with that, Keith.
Speaker 4:I was about to Put your hand right on that button.
Speaker 2:It is there.
Speaker 1:But you know, a lot of times the reason why grief is also so hard too is because we as society, and how media and movies and just everything portrays death, we feel like we are so far removed from it, but we are also consuming it but not respecting it as well. We see death all around us, in movies, tvs, all this other stuff and whatnot. And then with social media, just with Facebook Live, x, y and Z we see it so much we're not really respecting it to the point to where we don't think it can happen to us, so that when it does happen to us we don't know how to handle it because we've never respected the notion that it could happen to us. So I think a lot of this has to go with. We have to start understanding like, hey, I'm a human being, I can pick, anything can happen, you know anything, I can be diagnosed with anything. There could be an accident with anybody that I know, care and love. So at that point in time you have to stay not just vigilant, but just have an understanding Like God's will can happen at any point in time, not just I'm not going to say an accident, I'm not going to say you know, whatever it may be, a diagnosis, whatever it is God's will, can happen at any point in time and I need to respect that this could happen. And sometimes that kind of prepares us and I know it's not going to be the all ending thing that can prepare us.
Speaker 1:But sometimes having a notion of like hey, you know what the respect for hey, this like when I ride my motorcycles, I know this motorcycle can kill me, I understand it. The moment that I disrespect and understand that this motorcycle can kill me, then that's when I'm shocked all of a sudden like, oh my God, how did this happen? We have to start getting back in tune with understanding. Like, yeah, we're human, things happen and let's be more proactive than reactive, if that makes any sense. Now you don't have to be going around thinking like, oh my god, my parents about to die this, that you can't be just morbid like that but still just have an understanding and respect to certain things too. I'm telling my girl look, turn all that. You know, was it not first 48? We should be watching this snapped. Or you know how to how to get away with murder. We areensitizing.
Speaker 2:I don't understand it either. It makes no sense.
Speaker 1:But stop desensitizing yourself to this nonsense, because when tragedy happens, we don't know how to deal with it, because we took it for a joke, we took it for entertainment, and death is not entertainment when it happens to you at all.
Speaker 2:That's true. So let me ask you this um, if someone was to die, you know, say they were selling drugs and they were on a street corner, you know peddling stuff, and when they die, should I feel something? Or what if I don't feel anything because of just the life that they lived or the path that they chose? I'm not saying that life doesn't have meaning, but it doesn't. I mean, like you kind of set yourself up by doing things a certain way, should I like? I mean, I don't know how should I react?
Speaker 2:We could have all gone down that road, we could have all gone down that road.
Speaker 1:Everybody's a decision away from being in jail or being dead, whatever it may be. But just because of this particular one person's decision to do X, y and Z, it should not keep us having an inability to feel for another human being, even though you were demon.
Speaker 4:If that's the logic, then I hate the guy who eats burgers and fries and has a heart attack too. See, as long as you don't come for pizza, we good.
Speaker 3:Pizza too. I could come for that one.
Speaker 4:Artificial service. We all do that. Contribute to our own demise. We all do it, whether we eat, driving. Danny said get on a plane, not a plane, planes plural. There's always a risk of something happening like Steve alluded to Just disease for the sake of disease. It can be genetic, or we could go somewhere and contract something or get close to somebody who got less. It's out there, but we got to respect. Not fear, but respect it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and I would dare say, even with that, there's a lesson in the Bible that it's about grief. It's around this David Bathsheba Uriah narrative. But what happens is there's a decree that comes out of Nathan the prophet's life. It's like this child that's born to you is not going to survive, it's going to die. But David, he understands something about God and so he engages in a fast. He starts fasting over this child, and you see his reasoning toward the latter part of that story. But he's fasting because it's like you know what? I know God, I know that my prayers can move the hand of God, can change his mind. But even if it doesn't, I trust him.
Speaker 3:And so when the child actually passed, they thought David was going to lose it Because you, over here, you're not putting on no lotion, no deodorant, like, no, like you out here, just Natural, yeah, grieving you, grieving so hard while the child is alive. We were scared to tell you the child is dead. But the moment that they said that the child had passed, that the child died, david got up, took a bath, put his lotions, his deodorant on, and you see in that exchange the fact that he had accepted it. He had questions, he, he believed, he knew that God could change the situation, but yet and still, he had decided even if he doesn't, I'm going to trust him. I'm going to ask him to do something different, something supernatural, something extraordinary, something that he actually said he's not going to do, just because I know that he's a gracious God like that. But even if he doesn't, I still trust him, I'll still serve him and I will still, in my grief, walk with him.
Speaker 1:Do you? Think it's hard for people to believe that they will see their loved ones again, as the Bible promises.
Speaker 3:Is faith easy?
Speaker 1:No yeah.
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 1:And that's what God calls us to to do to have faith. To have faith and that the things that he promises in the bible he's going to do. You know so, a lot of times when I'm talking to a couple, I'm talking to an individual that's lost somebody. After a while I I go into that. I say, hey, you know what you know. This is where faith comes in. This is where that faith, where you have to believe what God says that he's going to do, he's going to do. So now you need to start digging into the word, start looking at what God says he's going to do, and hold on to that word and use that for faith. What else you got? What else? What else you got?
Speaker 3:Yeah, else, what else you got? Yeah, I just had a thought I wanted to ask you guys. I know we're nearing our hour here, but to me, the more something doesn't make sense, the more difficult it is to grieve it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, oh, absolutely, absolutely. The more it doesn't make sense, the harder it is to grieve because oftentimes there oftentimes no closure, and if there is closure, it's closure with holes or closure with you know. It's not full closure, it's just, it's still a jar open.
Speaker 2:Is that designed, though? So like, if we can't, if the only entity that can give us answers is God and we haven't gotten those answers to those questions, doesn't it make us want to live our lives right so that we have a better chance of getting them answered at some point?
Speaker 3:Well, I think it's usually going to do one of two things. It's going to push you one way or the other. I've seen it both ways. And so for some it does push you closer to God, like when the disciples when Jesus, you know, taught that hard teaching, you know, eat my flesh, drink my, and they're like yo, we out. And he's like to the disciples, y'all going, they're like where, where are we going to go? I'm right here, I don't get that. That that's some more weird stuff, but I ain't going nowhere. And then sometimes people just like you know what you could do, because I don't like that, and if this is what it's like to serve you, miss me with all that. Like you could have it, I'll be on, I'll be on a whole nother vibe and just doing what the opposite is of what you. It does both. I've seen it go both ways.
Speaker 2:I hope that I have the faith and the trust that, if I've been fortunate not to, I think, to only have one biological family member pass away, and that was my grandfather Everyone else was gone before me. I've had one really good friend pass away, and that was over 27 years ago ago, I think, about one of the funerals the last, pastor Harris, you know, and having to read a statement and just breaking down, people have influence and I think we're wrapping up, you know, I'll go ahead and put up this. I just hope that I have that type of faith and that type of trust. I hope that the minor challenges that I've gone through will prepare me for, I guess, the greater challenges and if not, I hope that you guys will intercede on my behalf because I don't know.
Speaker 2:One of the reasons why I'm glad y'all are here at this table is because y'all have been through some stuff and y'all have counseled me so that I would not have to go through that and if I ever did, y'all will counsel me through that. I wish the same for all of you, that whenever a tough time comes, that be it your educational training, be it your spiritual walk definitely your spiritual walk your friends, your support system, that people will prop you up when you are ready to throw in the towel. We are again at an age now where we are going to be experiencing a wave of loss that I mean it comes with age. I'll let y'all give a parting word.
Speaker 1:Final thought we can't follow up with that. Yes you can Look man we can't follow up with that.
Speaker 2:We got a spiritual leader. If everyone's looking at the screen, bottom bottom left, We've got the keeping it real top right, the keeping it real top right. Then we got the in-between guy that just comes out with nuggets of words that I'm just like how in the? World. He don't tell me this when we're on the phone. He must be saving this for the table. In all seriousness, I just hope that we're ready, because it's going to come, it's inevitable.
Speaker 4:As long as we live, as long as there's life, there will be death.
Speaker 3:And the longer we live, the more we'll see it. And I would just say my parting words is get used to not allowing those emotions to be stuck. Do not get emotionally constipated, because that's our default, especially people of color. We don't know. We haven't seen modeled, oftentimes healthy, ways of grieving and so it's foreign to us. But I'll just leave us with this. In the Beatitudes, the path to comfort comes through mourning. Blessed are those who mourn, who get it out. They will be comforted. They will be comforted. That's what's up.
Speaker 1:I would just part with just, you know, getting the understanding of people, hopefully, you know, developing a relationship with God. Now, you know, before, we are looking to develop that relationship. If something tragic happens, you know it's a little, are looking to develop that relationship. If something tragic happens, you know it's it's it's a little bit easier to develop that relationship and develop that, you know, understanding and that faith.
Speaker 1:Um, in the event of things aren't happening, but in the midst of of uh trauma and in the midst of tragedy, um, sometimes we can be very um, stubborn, upset, angry to where we don't want to have a conversation with God. We need to make sure that we have that we've developed that relationship. At least start that relationship before these things happen so that way we can have that comfort and have that understanding, hopefully before these things happen. So I just encourage people to do it now instead of. You know, be proactive out of all the things that we can do, because we have no control over who lives and dies and whatnot, but we do have control over how quickly we can want to develop that relationship with God. So be proactive with your relationship with God, don't be reactive.
Speaker 4:That's what's up. That's true. As for me, I am looking forward to the day that death shall die as it is written. Death does not play fair. Death is not kind, death does not care. Apparently, it either takes who he's called or he just takes who he wants.
Speaker 4:I don't know the method to the madness, but for those of us who have to journey on, do not let death steal your joy. You grieve your losses, you mourn your losses, but we are still here for a reason. We still need to be here for each other. We still need to guide, help and support one another.
Speaker 4:I've seen grief basically kill other people, and not in the sense that it actually physically. Well, no, I've seen it physically kill, but I've seen grief cause people to be absolutely I'm trying to think of a nice way to put it but, for the lack of a better word, they're basically vegetables. Wake up every day, lay in the bed motionless, and don't get me wrong if you got grieve and that's part of the grieving process initially but at some point you've got to get up and you've got to get back out here. People need you, your family needs you, your children may need you, but don't let grief destroy you. It's easier said than done when you're hurting, but when we get stuck? Um, it's easier said than done when you're hurting, but when we get stuck not on.
Speaker 4:sometimes the person in the cast is not the only one who's dead so stay up, stay alive, go get some help if you need it, and you know I'm here, call me if you need it, shoot. I need this.
Speaker 1:That was me too.
Speaker 2:As always. I truly appreciate your transparency. I truly appreciate the words. I think I'll definitely walk away when I need to stop going to people who lie to me for the truth. I think that was that is the word for today. Thank you, elder Jones. It's been real. It's Brian, danny, keith and Steve from the Iron Table and we out. Well, thank you for rolling with us this long. Can you do one thing for us? Actually, it's two things Life and shame. Thank you.
