The Iron Table
The Iron Table
Spiritual Struggles: Men's Journey in Love, Faith, and Community
Can romantic music teach us about the evolution of love? Join us at "The Iron Table" as Bryant, Keith, and Steve kick off our return from summer hiatus with a warm and reflective conversation. We catch up on our summer adventures—Steve’s journey to mindfulness, Keith’s balancing act with work and back-to-school hustle, and Bryant’s family-centric summer celebrations. We also embark on a nostalgic trip, comparing the heartfelt croons of Jodeci to today’s explicit love songs, pondering what this transformation means for modern relationships.
Why do so many men feel disengaged from church communities? Our discussion shifts to this pressing question, exploring the disconnect that many men experience with traditional church settings. We delve into the need for men-centric activities like sports leagues and the importance of genuine emotional connections. Past experiences and superficiality often leave men disinterested, but we examine how different perceptions between men and women shape their responses to church leadership, ultimately seeking ways to foster a sense of belonging and purpose within these communities.
How do you grapple with anger towards God when life gets tough? This episode dives deep into the spiritual and emotional struggles of faith. Reflecting on the story of Job, we discuss the trials that test our faith and provoke challenging emotions like anger and shame. We emphasize the importance of believing in God’s promises, even in the absence of guarantees, and how therapy or open conversations can help process these feelings. As we wrap up, we stress the critical role of community and vulnerability, urging men to engage actively and support one another in their spiritual journeys. Tune in for a rich, thought-provoking dialogue and remember, "iron sharpens iron, so should men sharpen men.
I am your host, bryant Goddine, and I'm joined by my brothers, keith, danny and Steve. We're your waiters, serving you, accountability and truth. We now bring you to our program already in progress. Welcome to the Iron Table. Iron sharpens iron, so should men sharpen men. As you heard, I'm your host, brian Goddine. Brought to the table tonight are my brothers, keith and Steve, and we're expecting Danny sometime later. But hey, anytime is a good time. When Danny shows up, we are.
Speaker 1:It's been a while it has been a minute since we've been able to record. Life just keeps lifing, kind of took the summer off to recuperate, to reflect, reconnect with our families. We have not neglected them, but we reconnected them. School's over, so we all of us had some pretty sure some summer project to do. Just recently a little guy turned nine took him to New York for his birthday. All he wanted to do was ride the train, so we were fortunate enough to be able to accommodate him. All he wanted to do was ride the train, so we were fortunate enough to be able to accommodate him. Hopefully he enjoyed himself. It was not cheap, but it was an experience and just glad that he got to do it. So just take a moment, kind of catch people up. Man Steve, what's been going on with you?
Speaker 2:Steve, what's been going on with you? I bought some toys. I've actually really been just thinking about how blessed I am, as well as reminding other people clients about how blessed they are, even in times of when you think things aren't really going right with yourself or whatnot. It's been kind of a slow motion summer and just kind of a summer of definitely reflecting and trying to refocus myself into, you know, preparing myself for next year. You know definitely have a lot of plans of things that I want to do and see it fulfilled. You know, just just preparing myself, just preparing myself and definitely centering myself too.
Speaker 2:I definitely like to tell people when things are going really well for yourself, keep your head on the swivel, because that's when the devil definitely will come knocking at your door. That's definitely very true for, especially with couples as well, when things are going really well, you know, that's when temptation definitely lurks around the corner too as well. So, you know, definitely stay prayed up and make sure that uh, you know you're you're communicating with your peoples too as well. So you know, like I said, it's been a slow motion this, uh, this summer, you know all right, deacon jones.
Speaker 2:All right, deacon Jones, yo, I've been busy, usually during the summer months. Sometimes work dies down. It's been the opposite. Work has actually picked up, which I'm not complaining because, again, like Steve said that's my favorite word blessed. It is a blessing to be busy. Then, naturally, kids, graduation, everything that normally happens, just summer planning. Now it's time to prepare for everybody to go back to school. I'm looking at the stores already got back to school, supplies already out. Now, naturally, I'd be like man, they're cutting summer short, they're rushing it, but no it, but no, not today. I'm like get these kids out my house, get these kids back back to the schoolhouse where they need to be, so my utility and my grocery bill can go back down.
Speaker 2:Um, take your kids um so I'm just enjoying the summer. Actually, I'm enjoying them being home some days, um it's. You know, we don't often get a chance to just do things during the week, so we've been able to hang out when I'm not working. She good.
Speaker 1:I would say, for me, summer's the opposite. I work from home, so when I work from home it's usually my me time, but being married to a teacher having a kid, that's in school.
Speaker 1:There's no me time, it's we time. We flip it over. And July is a busy month. Their birthdays are back to back. We try to have a trip. I know May, may, june we're. You know we all celebrated a birthday May June. We all celebrated a birthday. So I'm thankful to hit that 46. Used to think that 45, 40 was old until I got to it and I was like that's not old.
Speaker 1:A lot of stuff that we remember. It's interesting because just a moment ago Steve and I were talking about Jodeci. And I mean just a moment ago, steve and I were talking about Jodeci, and I mean songs talking about take my money, my house and my car, just for one hit of you. Now the songs don't say that. You know they ain't begging, they straight to the point.
Speaker 1:You know, let me grab your butt, let me grab your butt, and that's it, that's all they say. Let me grab your butt. They say let me grab. Well, that's it, that's all they say. Let me grab your butt, let me grab. Well, I'm, I'm trying to at least be um, but it works for some, some people, some people that works for well. You know, back in day used to understand what that song was. You used to know it, used to be able to kind of put your emotions into it. Either you was begging songs were what Begging pleading, or telling the woman hey, this is what I got. Maybe you'll choose me over the rest of the guys. Either I'm emotionally sensitive or I got the money in order to supply all of your fantasies. But now let me grab your butt, let me grab your chest, let me grab your butt, but it works. For new age relationships it works.
Speaker 2:It works until somebody don't own it, and then, all of a sudden, now it's, you know, harassment, harassment, right.
Speaker 1:It's all cute and funny.
Speaker 2:It's all cute and fine and dandy until you know. But you know it's crazy because our kids are seeing this or teaching this and you know, a lot of times you'll see YouTube clips or TikTok clicks where parents are smiling and laughing about, you know, maybe their daughter or their son doing, you know saying something, you know maybe inappropriate or sexually inappropriate or what. Now they think it's funny and they put a clip up. Funny and they, they put a clip up. But it's like, okay, now, when this, when he, when they grow up to be a deviant or or, uh, you know what they would say a whore, you know now, all of a sudden, oh wow, how can you be doing this? X, y and z. It's like, well, you're kind of breeding your kid to think that this is okay. You know.
Speaker 1:But what is inappropriate now, I mean, isn isn't that, based on the flavor of the day, morality? You know, like what we thought was cool, our parents was like, oh, that's nasty. Like you remember the song the Butt, you know all she was doing was bending over.
Speaker 2:I remember when that song came out, that was, oh my goodness, the reaction from the adults and I feel betrayed, because I grew up and became an adult and I listened to music from the 60s and the 70s and while the up was more direct, like the young people's music is now, when I listened to some of that music of the 60s and 70s, it wasn't as prevalent, but they had some cuts that were like well, no, Once you figured out I will say that they didn't blatantly say a lot of stuff, but once you figured out what they were talking about- you're nasty.
Speaker 1:It's always been nasty yeah it's always been nasty. Nasty says I mean what? 2 Live Crew is probably PG now right? Oh my God.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1:You go back and listen to that. Ooh yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not grown enough.
Speaker 1:Not grown enough for 2 Live Crew Not for 2 Live Crew.
Speaker 2:no, I'm still not grown enough.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay. It's amazing as we get older. Like you said, the songs that we grew up on. We was talking about Silk. I won't even say the stuff I was saying because only Steve could hear me. I was like I feel kind of weird reading off lyrics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that face right there I thought I was on speakerphone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm glad I missed that part, he was like no, it's just me. I was like I'm going to stop.
Speaker 2:Me and you, brother, I'm going to ask you to stop reading.
Speaker 1:Yeah, things are different. So I'm going to kind of pivot. This is a conversation that I wanted to have with us, probably before we went on our hiatus, and it was relevant then and I'm hoping that it's still relevant now. I'm going to post it. I'll read it for you, steve why are men so reluctant to go to church? Why are men so reluctant to go to church Now?
Speaker 1:Growing up in the Adventist community, there was a lot of men in church. They were married, but there was a lot of males. The deacons ran the church. They held it down. You couldn't spend that much time out in the halls. And nowadays it looks like it's a lot more women, a lot less men. There might be five guys doing just about everything, from being the deacons to uh, I guess you know, leading out. But what? When did the shift happen where church seemed to be more geared towards women than it was, like kind of straight down the middle? And have you even noticed that? I just I know we've had to deal with the pandemic.
Speaker 1:And of course, you now you have online, which makes things a little, a little harder to wake up, and you know, go, go into the building, you have kids. If you have kids you. It takes a lot more time and effort to get them ready. I remember we had to be in Adventist. You had to do most of the prep work before sunset and so all you really had to do was just get up. Your clothes were already ironed, just put them on. We went to Sabbath school or Sunday school for those who go to church on Sunday, which to me, I think, was one of the best parts of church because it was interactive dialogue. And maybe that's it. Maybe because there's no, a lot less interactive parts of church outside of being sung to, which now has a lot of praise teams instead of choirs. But from your, from either one of your viewpoint and you've, you've seen it or maybe you haven't why? Why has the church just seemed to be a little like less men in the church, and is there anything that could fix it? Okay, I'll jump in.
Speaker 2:Because I've actually looked at some numbers and once upon a time I'm gonna go back a little bit further. You know, all the way to the civil rights movement, there are a lot of men in church because church did not only serve as a place of worship but it was a meeting place that was functional for, like you said, other social activities of the other learning or just is, or just it was multifaceted. So there is a big dip in men, in the decline of black men in church after, ironically, the assassination of Martin Luther King. So the movement's over Martin Luther King is dead. A lot of men are struggling with depression, anger and anxiety, and so they stopped going to church, like, why keep going to this place? And for what? What's going to be? You know the things that came with all of that. So, like you said, we saw there was a I'll call it some type of spiritual awakening, revolution through all. I mean you had your Jimmy Swaggerts and all your different big name preachers.
Speaker 2:So you had all these big name preachers come through 70s, 80s, Like again. There was a rise again around that 80s, 90s, and then we dropped back off and we're all the way here now. I'm going to speed up to 2024 and get to the point. We got to a place where, again, what, in a nutshell, what is the purpose of a man at church? Why should he come?
Speaker 2:I will say this a lot of times where we're not active or involved, we're not interested. I think the things that kind of bring us out. Most of us feel like, as it relates to studying, to bring us out. Most of us feel like, as it relates to studying, I can study the Bible myself at home In 2024, I can turn on a sermon and watch somebody preach, probably better than the pastor that you go to listen to on the weekends. So if there's no place for me to serve and there's no place for me to participate and feel like I'm a part of what's going on, what is the incentive, what is the purpose for me being here? And I hear that and see that from a lot of men.
Speaker 2:So what again for churches who are trying to get people not just well, trying to get people to become acclimated? You know, I've been talking to churches on how to make people feel more acclimated, how to make people feel more welcomed and part of the process and not somewhere they just come and give all their money. You know some people, you know cause they're, you know, give all their money, cause from some churches and then, and then just leave feeling more empty than when they, when they came. So you ask, why aren't men coming or staying to me is because they don't feel like they have a place. It's, it's very, it's a. Some churches are very emotional settings, which is nothing wrong with us getting attacked. There's nothing wrong with us tapping into our emotional size. But If that's all that there is, then again, that's not. It won't ever be for us. We need, as men, we need more than that. Even women need more than that. So, but I think, for we will come, we will fill up on air and leave feeling full, but we'll be empty.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned sorry, but you mentioned like when Martin was around have we as a people reached a point where we no longer have a struggle, a reason to come to, like a common goal to come together? You mentioned like I remember you know I say you find a good woman in the church. I was fortunate to find my wife as the Sabbath school teacher at church, but now, with the invention of the internet, I know you really don't have to go, you can find somebody online With, like you said, the fact that you can listen to a more dynamic speaker online. Is it just the Internet, or is there something that is is missing? Because I hear, I hear you say there isn't something for us, but does that mean that we need to create what that is and, if so, what is that?
Speaker 2:Yes, we can't expect anybody else to create, because at this point, most people don't even know. So I wouldn't expect anyone to create something that they're not familiar with or could not understand per se. I mean, they can help, they can support.
Speaker 1:There's a men's ministry. I've seen where in. At least the last event that I might have heard about was oh, come over and watch the super bowl. I don't really care for football like that, you know, but what I did enjoy was, uh, basketball, church league, church league basketball something that was active, some some type of you know common goal of trying to win, so much so that I'm trying to start my own team. I've already tabbed Keith as a starting forward. I need you to get back in the game shape.
Speaker 2:Okay, I have to tell you, man, that's what you want Steve, you can get some of this, I'm going to give my solid three. Football is my strength, brother. I can play some defense, but football is my strength.
Speaker 1:You're not allowed to play football.
Speaker 2:I do flag, I ain't giving you that I do some flag and I say that now, until the first hit, I'm like, okay now you know what I'm every bit of this age now. This, nah, you know what I'm every bit of this age now. This ain't fair, this ain't fair. Y'all playing too much, this ain't fair. But you know what I actually and I'm sorry, I had a bit of a situation going on that I had to take care of while you was asking that question I think that, from what I've been hearing and what I've been seeing too, is that there is a lot of hurt that goes on in the church, and I think for one how can I say this? I think, in one sense, that a lot of men sometimes see through a lot of BS that goes on, and I don't want to sound a certain way, but I think that I think that I think that women are a little bit more susceptible to how can I say this? Not just the BS, but kind of sometimes, you know, brainwashing, sometimes too, by leaders that should not be in the church. And I say that to say that, you know, I've heard a lot of instances where and just like with therapy, a lot of times women are the ones that want to initiate couples therapy. Women are a lot of times the ones that want to. You know, hey, let's all go to church, x, y and Z. So a lot of times they are the ones looking for, you know, some hope, looking for answers, x, y and Z, and get caught up in a lot of the, the, the BS that goes on in the church. A lot of times men not only just see through it, but sometimes they just don't want to deal with it because as men, we see what other men do, right, and I and I and I give for an example that you know, I've, I've, I've heard about a, a case of where a, a, a man, was going, was seeking, was seeking counsel for, um, some marital problems and issues that were going on at his, uh, you know, in his, in his marriage, and he went to go seek help from the pastor x, y and z, um, you know they were going and before you know it, there was some hey, I need to see your wife for some, um, you know some some side sessions and whatnot, you know, and and this in this particular, this particular preacher, they were doing, they were doing couples counseling with the preacher's wife, so it's like four of them. But at a certain point in time I don't know there's some certain things we need to, you know, hash out with you. You know, so, long story short, before you know it, the man's wife who he was trying to get help for, she ends up pregnant. Guess who's the father, the pastor. So guess what? The pastor doubles down. Pastor doubles down on this and says you know what? You know, I'm going to divorce my wife, divorce my, I'm gonna divorce my wife. And guess what? Now we getting married and then they have some more kids. And guess what?
Speaker 2:The church stood behind every bit of it. So you know, to be honest with you, there's a lot of hurt and there's a lot of distrust that goes on in the church. But I think that from the get-go, you know us as black men. We not we kind of distrust, distrustful in the first place. So it's like when we see some of this, these characteristics and this BS that goes on in a lot of church, we just like I don't want to go, I don't want to deal with it, and you know, and it sucks to say it, but it really sucks to understand, to see that it's really true.
Speaker 1:So how do?
Speaker 1:you know, to how do you explain that to your significant other who says but I want to go to church and church means a lot to me. I know there's a difference between Christianity and church. You don't have to always go to church in order to have a godly mind or or godly movements. But you know how do you? I'm not going to say how do you get out of it, but how do you express where it come. It doesn't come across that, oh, he just doesn't want to go, but it's, there's a legitimate concern. Yeah, express a legitimate concern, or or express it in a way that it reaches pink ears and pink eyes, instead of sounding.
Speaker 1:I mean you knowall.
Speaker 2:I think communication gotta be the key and you know and it doesn't just start with, I mean, it doesn't just, you know, end or start with church you have to communicate with your spouse about everything that you're feeling, everything that you're thinking. And when we're talking about communication, this should be the person that you do not feel like. Give me one second. I'm in a meeting man. You know what? Oh boy, good old detroit, right, can't, can't do nothing about yourself.
Speaker 2:Good old detroit their whole life story. They don't even know you exactly. Um, but no, this is what I'm saying. Um, you have to communicate with your spouse, with about everything that is going on with you and how you're feeling, how you're thinking, because at a certain point in time, your spouse is not going to know anything that's going on with you, to the point to where you're going to be a stranger, and this is supposed to be the person that you want to spend that you are going to spend the rest of your life with. Pretty much the only person that comes before this person is God, you know.
Speaker 2:So why not share your thoughts, your fears, your concerns? I mean, you can share everything else, and I always tell couples this if you are, if you can open up your mouth and spread your legs and want her to spread your legs, any of that stuff, if we, when we talk about sex, we have no problem of you know communicating, hey, that's what I need, that's what I want. So we can communicate that all the time and let them know when we need that. How come we can't communicate about all things? And that's how it should be, especially when you're talking about a husband or a wife. This is supposed to be your best friend at this point. This is your best friend. So I think communication got to be the key for this. You have to talk to them about your history, your fears, what you want in the church. Hey, what is it that you don't want in a church? All those particular things. It has to be communicated and you have to have a thoughtful conversation, not just once. This has to be an ongoing thing, because communication offers a perspective that your significant other may not see. He or she may not see, like you said, you or you just may know information that they don't where you know. No, it's kind of I like the church but it's kind of messy there, based you know, because you might know the pastor is, or the ushers, or you might know something that makes it a messy church.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we again, we as men, we look for peace. Even when we can go to a house of worship, we want peace. A lot of the men don't, most of us don't even want to deal with the messiness at the church. We want to go where we be a blessing, receive a blessing, go home at the church. We want to go and be a blessing, receive a blessing, go home. But there are some people who enjoy getting all into the politics of everything and the messiness of it all, and then some people know they don't want all of that. I know people who told me I just want to come and worship and go home. I don't want to serve, I don't want to be a part of nothing. I'll make friends or associates, for that matter, but they didn't want a deeper level. So my question to you is is that okay? Is that okay? I think so.
Speaker 1:Okay. So if you want more from it, but you're not putting in more, or not putting in, how are you? You know, what are you getting out of it? I mean, you're, you're asking, we're we're asking for it to be better, but we're not putting in any, any tangible resource in order to move it towards better, but we're expecting it to change, isn't that?
Speaker 2:crazy. It's paradox. Oxymoron Doesn't make sense. Yes, I'm hoping that my sickness goes away, but I'm not going to treat it. I'm not even praying about it at this point. I'm just complaining, like most people do.
Speaker 2:Okay With everything. Is everybody ready at a certain point in time, ready to actually really make a change though? Because a lot of times we talk about things, but are we really prepared to make a particular change that we know we need to make? Sometimes it's all fun and dandy to talk about it, it feels good, it sounds good, but when it comes down to actually doing it, when it comes down to doing the work, that's when it's like, oh no, we don't need to do that. And that's why, sometimes you know one of my pastors.
Speaker 2:He talks about being you got church people and you got kingdom people.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean when people live by the word.
Speaker 2:You know, day in, day out, not just in church, because it sounds good to do all these things and say all these things in church, but when you actually have to do them outside of church, when it's the most hard, that's when it's the work, and you know, a lot of times people are lazy when it comes to doing what it is that you really need to do, and a lot of times, sometimes, it's our leaders in the church that are very lazy in doing what it is that they need to do in order to lead the people, because it's one thing to tell people what to do or what they should be doing, but a lot of times, people in the congregation are looking at each other like I know what pastor do, are looking at each other like I know what pastor do.
Speaker 2:Just how does being a congregation, knowing these particular things and the pastor is telling people what to do, knowing that he's leading his people astray, which is another point, not another point, but something that other that also boggles my mind in the Bible that does speak of? You know God, speaking to the leaders, specifically saying hey to the leaders and the and the and the people of the church, um, you know, let it be known. If you lead my people astray, I'm coming for you first and you're going to get. You're going to get it tenfold specifically. You know so, at a certain point in time, if you're a pastor and you know this, it's like man. You're playing with god at this point and forget these human beings down here on earth.
Speaker 1:You're playing with god yeah, but I think some people, um, when I say they don't care, they don't think, or like eternity and heaven is really not a not a realistic option. So it's like, why do all of this if there's no guarantee? There's no guarantee for a we don't know. Honestly, we You're right Morality, the intrinsic nature of man is just to be buttholes, just to be something Certified Gemini.
Speaker 2:That's what's up.
Speaker 1:But there's a part of us that is still well. I think the spirit moves in us that says okay, you know, this is wrong, you need to do right. And most of the time we try to lend towards doing what is right, knowing that you know there is no guarantee, but if you know and that's where I think the where he makes up the difference you know if I'm trying now, if I'm trying to hell in a basket.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to try. I'm going to be a butthole to. I think the worst you can do is to widows and children. When you do something to them, you know he he specifically said those are who he cares for the most. But I think there's some people that just truly, if they, they really don't believe that that eternity is a realistic goal. They look at what's going on in the world and how could a benevolent, kind God allow this to happen to positive people.
Speaker 1:From my reading, my understanding, a lot of the people who were close to God had to go through some trials and tribulations. It was a, it was a given, and I believe that you know Satan for those who believe in him, that he only goes after those who he knows are is close to God and know that he has to even ask God. If you look at the story of Job, he had to go to God and say, hey, you know, job likes you because of this. God was like all right, you just can't touch him. He did everything he could. That was a struggle. I mean you lose all your stuff, your wealth, your family, your friends are questioning like what did you do? Because you know a week ago you was good with God, now you're not.
Speaker 2:That's the reality for a lot of men. They are angry with God and it has nothing to do with church, it's maybe everything else that has happened in their lives. And so why go to a place to serve somebody who I'm angry with? And sometimes they know it, sometimes they're aware of it, sometimes through talking about it in therapy or just amongst friends, they come to that realization that I'm frustrated with God. And again I mean I enjoy when I pull it out of people, sometimes because it feels wrong to say for some people it feels really, it feels sacrilegious to say because I mean this is God. It feels sacrilegious to say because I mean this is God. But at the same time, when you like Job, when you feel like you're just going through a Job experience and you're losing everything and you don't understand, yes, you become, you become unsure, you become frustrated, you become angry, sad, all these normal human emotions, and sometimes we have to process that. We have to. I'm sure Joseph in the Old Testament, while in prison he probably had to say okay, god, I had these big dreams of being this big guy. This don't look like my dream. So I'm pretty positive.
Speaker 2:Most of us who thought we were going to go out and do the greatest thing and when it don't happen, the way we think we become frustrated, we become angry and again, what purpose? Until we figure out what purpose church, we, we feel like we don't have a place in that, in there, because it's like what is the point? I could go there and and again, listen to all these services, read all these things and connect with all these people who are doing what are doing what you know. It's very interesting that this comes up too and I want to speak to this. But before I speak to that, I want you, I want to also talk about what pretty much religion is kind of based upon, and I think God asked of us to to you know, to be able to best serve him is that we have to have faith. You know, I know we had. There is no guarantee, you know, to be able to best serve him is that we have to have faith. You know, I know there is no guarantee, but you know it's based upon having faith that God is saying that he's what he's going to do, that he's going to do.
Speaker 2:But I find it very interesting that we're having this conversation because I do specifically remember talking with people this week about that whole concept of say, for instance, I do something that I feel like is unforgivable, right, whether it be, you know, stealing, murder, whatever it may be, I feel like I have done something that is unforgivable and God is not going to forgive me. I'm down to hell and I'm going to hell X, y and Z, and it's just never. I'm just, I'm not forgiven, and that's contrary to what the Bible tells us, that, hey, you know what you ask for forgiveness, you accept Jesus into your heart. You know all sins will be forgiven. That's the concept of why Jesus Christ died on the cross, am I correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have a lot of people that do not believe that. They believe that they're above, and I've had to say to like who are you to be above what God said that he's going to do? Who are you, you know? And my thing is like well, do you, you believe God is going to keep your family safe? Do you believe God is going to do this? God is going to bless them. God is going to, you know, wake you up in the morning.
Speaker 2:All these things that God said he's going to do, well, yeah, well then, why is it that you don't believe that God won't do the all things that he said he was doing, why are you picking and choosing? You can't, you know you definitely can't. So my thing is if you believe God is going to do this, he's going to do all things that he said that he's going to do, and don't pick and choose. Don't be your own worst enemy. So you have a lot of people out here not only being their own worst enemies, but they're hearing other people, other leaders, say hey, guess what? This is heinous, you can never be forgiven for this. And they're adopting that ideology instead of listening to what God says themselves.
Speaker 1:So I mean all right, oh okay. So uh, real quick recap Danny we're trying to.
Speaker 1:I asked a question on you know why are men reluctant to go to church? So we we've gotten to a point where, um, we talked about how men were first at church. Keith had mentioned during, like, the civil rights movement. You know there was a movement, so there was action, there was a need, there was. It wasn't just talk, there was, you know, some type of doing. You know Steve has mentioned that there.
Speaker 1:You know just what the Bible says and you know just how you know it's faith and how you know men have have, have gone through some stuff and you know it really hasn't been addressed. The church really hasn't addressed. You know, some of the issues that men go through because either we've held it or they really don't know how to answer it. But one of the things that just came up was you know why are we accepting? You know people are willing to accept one side of God, but not everything that he does, and so my question is do people really believe? It's just that simple of you know, if you accept what I have to offer and just let me into your heart, start, you know, let your ways be my ways, or my ways be your ways, and like, why won't people just accept that God is very simplistic?
Speaker 2:That's because it's kind of because it's selfish. I'm going to be honest with you. It's selfish that when we start to think about it because if you really think about that concept it's a possibility Hitler can be in heaven If all sins are forgiven it's like well damn, I did everything I was supposed to do. How did this murderer? How did this rapist? How did they make it into heaven? I did everything I was supposed to do. How did this murderer? How did this? How did this rapist? How did they make it into heaven? I did everything I was supposed to do. I didn't do.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of like selfish. And then again, like you said, it's simplistic, but again, like I had to tell some of my clients this week that you know the Bible speaks of like hey, I think it's a partner where I don't know if it's God or if it's an angel. Somebody like that is asking about either God's name or the angel's name and I think God responds or the angel responds and says you know, you can't even fathom how to really say my name. You're not able to really understand and get the gist of it. So that kind of lets you know, we as human beings are sometimes outside of the comprehension, maybe right now, of understanding, yeah, yeah, right, we're out of the realm. We're out of the realm. We're out of the realm of understanding all that stuff. So a lot of times when, as simplistic as it is, that's what it is. And again we have to have that faith to just say, hey, guess what? This is what God says. Because here's the thing, we'll become our own worst enemies, and sometimes that sounds like that's the devil coming in to talk to us about certain things that God can say, that God didn't say, hey, I'm gonna forgive your sins, except for if this, or you know, god said look you, let me into your heart, you forgive. You know that Jesus died on the cross. X, Y and Z, all sins are forgiven, you know.
Speaker 2:So, at a certain point in time we we get into ourselves, we feel ourselves and we we lose that faith in what God says. But again, then now we pick and choose, because we have faith that God's going to keep everything safe X, y, z, all these other things but you're going to forgive my sins too. Now, you're not going to do that, but all this other stuff you're going to get, it makes. Again, that's the fallacy of human at that point, again, that's the fallacy of human. At that point, yeah, I would just kind of come in and kind of deal with the. In my personal experience, it's oftentimes that we've got a lot of shame, shame issues. We've got a lot of shame, shame issues, and so the church, because of ignorance, speaks to use shame to control the morality of people who are knowing little, knowing that shame is never a tool that god uses.
Speaker 2:I used to think that guilt and shame were the same thing. It's just like you. You have to be ashamed when you sin. But no, shame is very unique in genesis it has adam and eve running and hiding and Put on clothes. Covering up Exactly. Whenever there's running and hiding from God, like it doesn't take a rocket scientist to say, hmm, how you going to do that Run and hide, and so the question then becomes where does shame come from?
Speaker 2:If it's causing you to run and hide from God, like where does shame come from? If it's causing you to run and hide from God, like, where does it come from? It's a demonic concept and so when we understand that, fundamentally it reframes how the church is operating. Just because I love how Pastor Darius Daniels says it. He says there's the kingdom's way, there's the church's way and then there's the world's way. We sometimes think the church is synonymous with the kingdom. That's not always the case.
Speaker 2:I grew up in a very shame-oriented environment where if you weren't in line, morally speaking, and even still to this day, like, they will shame you into um and not to be who wants to be in an environment where the only way that you're acceptable is if you're actually running and hiding from the things that you struggle with. Guys, don't talk as it is. Yeah, exactly, we just talked yep, yep. That's what we just said. We're not opening up now and you really think that you're shaming me is gonna make. No, it's gonna have the opposite effect. It's gonna push you in that shame cycle where whatever, um, whatever unproductive behavior you're involved in, you're just gonna get pushed back into that and that's gonna be, uh, the hamster wheel that you're involved in. You're just going to get pushed back into that and that's going to be the hamster wheel that you're stuck on till something breaks that cycle. So I don't know if that's the answer. I see a question here.
Speaker 1:I think, more dialogue.
Speaker 2:Having creating more spaces where it's OK to not be OK, where where people can be real and raw and broken without being shamed, is a big need in most churches.
Speaker 1:So would you say that the churches today still are run with the shame model?
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, or fear-based, Absolutely fear-based. Every emotion that is not from love is fear-based. How do you have accountability and how do you balance accountability and not create a a lane of shame or fear or embarrassment, or is that even something realistic? It is, I guess it because I hear what we're saying and I agree. You know that there's some levels of shame that are just absolutely ridiculous. But then I what is the balance? Great yeah.
Speaker 1:Does accountability then turn to remorse, and is remorse and shame the same, or are they different?
Speaker 2:Here's my take on this God always deals with sin the same way. Isaiah, chapter 1 and verse 18. It's the way God always deals with sin from Genesis to Revelation. Come now, let's reason together. Let's talk about this.
Speaker 1:Though your sins.
Speaker 2:I'll make them wider than snow, though they're red like crimson, you know, hey, hey, what do you want? Where are you? Why are you hiding? He's always come talk to me about it. He received the prodigal son. He didn't let him finish his pitiful speech. He's always literally like yo come reason with me, adam. Where are you?
Speaker 1:Bro, let's talk. He's always the initiator of communicator.
Speaker 2:That is his stance. Woman, where are thine accusers? Hath, no man condemned thee. Okay, like I got you, I got you, I got you, but I'm not here. The Son of man didn't come into the world to condemn the world, but he came to save the. It's not the health of any of the doctors, it's the sick. So, in response to Keith's question of like, okay, where's the balance? The balance is first understanding that we're all saved by grace, through faith, but for the, I mean, it ain't nothing but the grace of God, and I ain't a crackhead.
Speaker 1:That I'm not out here in the whorehouse.
Speaker 2:You know that I'm not over here like just getting ready to jump off a bridge, because like when life is life, it can push you to that breaking point and I think it can normalize being at that breaking point, because every great man in the Bible was. Moses was like you just gonna have to take me out, god. Elijah was like Solomon Samson all of them that's what I do love about the mindset even Adam as men who are perfect and never did anything wrong or had any struggles.
Speaker 2:It gives the hot and cold of every individual in there. For me, part of the solution is is having rooms where we can be real and raw and authentic, where we can be broken. Where we can, you know?
Speaker 1:but the church? The church doesn't have that platform anywhere.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying it doesn't have it, but I've seen it. I've actually seen it. There are some churches that are thriving to this day because they have it. The average church does not. So if I went into a church and I stood up and said I relapsed today, I've been sober 10 years and I got drunk today Steve is drinking. What do you think Some churches would respond and be there are people. Yes, you drunker, or I had a baby and I'm 15. I was going to go there next. They'll kick you out. They'll kick you out. I've heard of stories of them. They'll put you out the church. You're done. Same day, same day. So then, how does that then now impression on a young teen and their concept of God? This is God. I don't want to have nothing to do with this.
Speaker 1:This isn't love.
Speaker 2:This has played out so many times that it's ridiculous, because now she now will pass on her ideology of God and the church to this child that she now bore and there again you have someone who's growing up feeling they don't need this connection, because I saw what they did to me and my mom.
Speaker 1:But I know back then that mindset was, if we remove the, the part that offends you, to try to save the rest of the body, because that's why it's done yes, but not knowing how, I mean how important that part of the body still is, and and just a long-lasting effect. We don't know the influence that certain people were now seeing it, because there's a big gap, age gap in churches for those who were teens in the 90s and the early 2000s, who are now parents, who probably are like, yeah, I don't need to take my child there. But what I'm saying is that that was the reasoning To try to save the many you had to save the many you had to release the few, the concept of cutting off the can't cut off the cancers.
Speaker 2:But see, but here's the thing, it's you only do that when it's not personal. Now, if it's your daughter, or if it's your cousin, or if it's your mama, or if it's your auntie, you're going to want to help them. But you only do that when it's not. When it's your auntie, you're going to want to help them, but you only do that when it's not personal. So my thing is we should take everything to be personal and I look at it to like, hey, when you go past a car accident and you see it's like really bad or whatnot. No, you should feel bad because that could be your people, that could be somebody that you love. That's another human being.
Speaker 2:People look at other people's situation. Well, not me, not me. A lot of times, and that kind of moniker goes on, like say, for instance, with certain things, certain ailments happen, such as, you know, cancer awareness. A lot of times people don't be on that bandwagon until it happens to them. So a lot of times we got to take ourselves out of separating ourselves and say, oh, not me, not me. No, you human too, it definitely can happen to you and it definitely can happen to around the people around you.
Speaker 2:So maybe this person that got pregnant is a test to see from God, to see how you're going to handle, how you're going to treat this person, because this might be a situation for you and I'm going to see if I'm going to bless those around you based upon how you treat other people around you that you may not know True. So here's what I'm saying. The solution is it's in Romans, not Romans. Revelation in chapter 12. By the blood of the lamb and the word of the testimony. Now I for testimony service where you get an allegory, details and everything I would get ready to test for service. Now I afford testimony service where you get an allegory of details and everything like that I would get ready Switch testimony service.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we could have an old podcast it was on the pipe.
Speaker 2:But some of these old people out here and y'all know what I'm talking about they be acting like they wasn't out here in these streets. That part right there, that part right there, that's how they know. That's how they know. That's how they know. I know what you're out there doing and I know what you're doing. I let you do it Because I saw you there the other day too. You was there. I used to be there. Well, I still am.
Speaker 1:Last week, Last week yes, somebody told me if I don't get Right last week.
Speaker 2:Last week. So yes, somebody told me, if I don't get, caught, it don't count.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, but they was like well they got it.
Speaker 2:So if I don't get caught? Because, again, church situation his friends got this fellowship and they were like, well, shouldn't he be going with us? And they were like, well, we didn't see him. But then his philosophy? Well, yeah, that's right, y'all didn't. So if I don't get caught, it don't count. So, yes, having empathy and having an understanding of how to handle certain protocol, there are certain things that can be, and only because I've served on some, some, some committees, I do think that they that I've seen some situations where, like Goodon said, like Ryan said, in order for the health of the body, this person is not stable or well enough to stay amongst the flock, meaning I'm going to try a little, johnny, this there was a situation where there was a man who was flirting with everybody's wife and he had been corrected, he had been by the past and a couple of the husbands wanted to touch him up too. He had been talked to, he chilled out for about six months, right back up.
Speaker 2:I mean inappropriate inappropriate Like touching and comments.
Speaker 1:Oh no.
Speaker 2:Oh no. It escalates, because the only thing that you understand is Smith and Wesson at that point, because it makes no sense. 500 years ago, Ben Stones to the face. There you go.
Speaker 2:In this case again, he had to be this fellow. It wasn't even a thing where he wanted, like they didn't even want to do it, but it was like we love you, your family, everybody, but you cannot be here and do you cannot continue to do it. But it was like we love you, your family, everybody, but you cannot be here and do you cannot continue to do this, because we we don't want to just throw you away, but at the same time, we can't have you here doing what you're doing okay, double standard moment he gets thrown out.
Speaker 1:But you're saying the wives got to stay Because they followed through with his advances.
Speaker 2:Not all of them.
Speaker 1:Not all of them, but I'm saying the ones that did. Did the church also remove them?
Speaker 2:No, what would happen to them back in the day? Would they get it too? Would they get the stone? Too, They'd stone everybody Back in the day. They there the day. I think they were disappointed when they woke up and they couldn't stone nobody. Man. Look, I like Old Testament God. Old Testament God didn't play. They were like who colored outside the line? I see it here. Somebody colored outside the line. Stone them. This was an unclean lamb. Stone them. They stoned for you see, that's why I'm glad you're here, listen, y'all ain't got to do that.
Speaker 2:Relax, we're going to do it a new way, a different way. Do you guys think that there is a call for a greater need for checks and balances in church?
Speaker 1:That's what I'm asking.
Speaker 2:What's the balance? There needs to be some protocols, like you know, and go over scenarios. Hey, what happens if we have somebody that is causing chaos with the women amongst the church or with the men amongst the churches? I'm pretty sure that happens too. What is our protocol? What is it that we do? How do we deal with this? Just like you know, each church needs to have its own war room too. Because, it has to be peace. Most of them. We ain't even going to try to figure it out.
Speaker 1:But some people make stuff early and some people like I- said some people. You're not giving them the tools in order to make correction. You're just saying we don't even want to deal with you.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, how many times do we deal with? Do we give them three chances, three strikes and you out? We're going to let the Lord deal with you 70 times 70?
Speaker 1:What is?
Speaker 2:that 490? When you mess with the women and the children ain't no, 70 times you got to go yeah that's what I'm just about to say Until they mess with your wife. Now ain't no 70 times nothing. You got to go, I know. That's why I said there has to be a balance, because it won't always be this lane of. Oh, you know, he's just going through some things. He about to go through this. You about to go through your wife now too.
Speaker 1:How you feel now.
Speaker 2:I do believe it's about reform Again, maybe because of the nature of work that we do. I do believe it is about not just okay, you can, of the nature of work that we do. I do believe it is about not just okay, you can't come back here, but here are some places to give you some resources, to get some help for what you're doing.
Speaker 1:Some resources. I love that word Some resources.
Speaker 2:Another church where you might be. Okay, it's just old men in that church. Or you can only come to church virtually. We use virtual now you can come virtually only. Brother, we love you, but you got to worship from a distance, brother.
Speaker 1:Watch that chat room. Okay, so, to get us back. So what, the church needs to have a safe space for men to be real, to be raw, they need to, I guess, somehow cut through the fluff and, I guess, be direct. Um, but what does that really look like? Do you need to hear somebody get up in the middle of church and say, man, I used used to used to run through women, or, you know, I had a drink this morning. Um, or like, how do you know that this, like this church is going to fulfill? You know your need if you're not going to be vulnerable or watch someone else be vulnerable, vulnerable, or watch someone else be vulnerable.
Speaker 2:I'm actually studying the book of Acts right now and I think this is a great discussion because we're using the word church rather loosely. And one thing we see in Acts, chapter two, the latter part I think it's verse 42. See in Acts, chapter 2, the latter part, I think it's verse 42, it says very clearly that they all came together and had everything in common and they were constantly coming to break bread. It wasn't a one day, one hour doing life together, and this concept of church just being we go, we sing some songs, we sit down and hear a sermon and I'll see you until next week, and we do the same thing over and over again.
Speaker 2:That's not biblical model for church, but America has created and called it. But in actuality it was the people, the, the community, the way is what it was called in scripture. So when, when we have to? To me, answering this question is is understanding the need for us to have communities within the body of what we call the church, because the church isn't the building, the church isn't that one hour a week, the church is the people coming together and taking off their fig leaves, you know, so that we can collaboratively get healed, the reason our tear ducts are not underneath our armpits is because when God wants our pain seen, healing happens when that pain is shared. God wants our pain seen, healing happens when that pain is shared and until we really get into trusting relationships with those who are part of it.
Speaker 1:I would say everybody can't, everybody can't see these tears.
Speaker 2:No, it's not. It's not for that, it's not for the public stage. That that's not church. Church happens when I'm sitting down eating a meal.
Speaker 2:Tears don't have to be for everybody. It might be for that one or two people who have shared the same journey or similar journey, but what? But here's the thing. This is and this speaks to something like when me and Keith do workshops or whatnot why our workshops go so good is because of that one concept of inclusion of everybody. Right, you know, and I know you can't do that every single church sermon where you know you're allowing everybody to speak, but there should be some type of implementation in these, in churches, where, hey, you know what, maybe not this Saturday, I mean this Sunday or whatever it may be hey, you know what, maybe not this Saturday, I mean this Sunday or whatever it may be but we're going to have a, you know, a get together, maybe a smaller groups, where we're all being able to share and talk about our story.
Speaker 2:Because a lot of times people just go to church and you just sit there and you're listening, but you have these thoughts or you have these concepts that you want to ask questions or you want to get out and talk about, but you can't because it's a one kind of it's a one mic show and, like you were talking about that, danny, being having to be collaborating, talking, communicating. It should be a back and forth dialogue if possible sometimes. But when we shut everything out and we say, hey, this one up here at the pool, you know, on stage, that's, that's the voice of reason and that's it. You know, it's like it's really hard to then for men to connect to something that they're not able to voice their opinions out on too. And, like I said, there's a big difference between men and women. Women are definitely they'll, they'll be able to receive it, they'll, they'll take it in, they take. Men have to give it out Sexually. This is how we are. Think about it. When men are asking men to take it in, take it in, we can't give it out. That's the problem why we are a lot of men keeping in. Forget it.
Speaker 2:Nobody want to hear nothing anyways, every time I go somewhere else and whatnot? Everybody just talking. Nobody want to hear my story. Nobody want to hear nothing anyways, every time I go somewhere else or whatnot, everybody just talking. Nobody want to hear my story, nobody wants to say anything. And sometimes it even gets that way in prison, where not, you know, trying to work with people, you're pulling teeth. You got to pull teeth because all these years you know everybody's been talking at you. You've never been to have the mic ever in your life, so that's going to that. That's a concept of especially collaborating and communicating and being a community for us all to talk to, for us all to have a voice, is extremely important, extremely important.
Speaker 1:So I'm glad you said that, because you're right, we do need to have an outlet. We can't just be receivers, we are. We are givers by nature providers. There's an action verb behind it, and listening isn't always an action, it's a kind of reception. But if the church was to provide that space, or the construct of church was to provide that space, would we show up more to those just listen-only sessions? Or at this point, with the evolution of man and the fact that our needs have changed, we're a little more vocal. We probably can't hold it in as long as we used to being able to hold that.
Speaker 1:You know now, we, that that just sitting is just never going to be an option. It's always going to be cause. For me, honestly, like Sabbath, school is probably the best part of church because it does. It does have that interaction, interactive. I remember going to a Jehovah witnesses, um like event, and what I thought was interesting at the hall at the kingdom hall.
Speaker 1:You better not say church I remember the speaker was up speaking, but people in the audience could raise their hand and be acknowledged. I was like man, this is cool. Why can't we do this at my home church?
Speaker 2:You get put out, trust me, and I honestly just had a question.
Speaker 1:And I thought how'd you ask?
Speaker 2:that question and I've done it at a couple of different churches and some people saw this threatening and I really I really wasn't trying to be facetious, I really wasn't trying to start an argument, but I had a question based on what he said. So I just wanted to know, I wanted some clarity and, yeah, he got upset and asked me to leave and some things just don't make sense and you need to ask questions like really Okay, so this man got mad that these little boys was calling him bald and prayed and God sent some bears down to kill everybody. Really, you want to ask those questions and you should be able to ask your leaders these questions, but sometimes, again, our leaders don't really know what it is that they really. Some of them are self-proclaimed and they put themselves in these positions and they haven't done this.
Speaker 2:Self-proclaimed. Some of them have not studied to show themselves approved. Some people just wake up and say I feel I'm called to be in ministry and there's no study. After being a pimp feel I'm called to be in ministry and there's no study.
Speaker 2:After being a pimp. Right, you're good at convincing people to give you money, but you don't know biblical principle or theology. So when you're questioned, it feels threatening, and when the ladies, you can kind of circle around them, because I see this happen with some of these guys the men part of the reason we stopped going is like you said earlier, steve when we see through the BS it's like I'm not going to go there. Because I see that's Pimp, John and Pimp.
Speaker 2:John is still Pimp John and I want to believe that he's going to reform and I'll wait and see. I'll wait and see if Pimp I'm going to get it together and if he does I'm cool going to his church Like I don't judge anybody, I didn't. But even when, because we had this whole thing with Snoop, was the Kanye and everybody was doing gospel albums for some reason.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you're right, You're right, I don't know what they've been through, but after what they've been through. But all I ask is after the money, after the sales were made, are they still living the principle? Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:And I don't know they could come back to it. I don't know, but from what I've seen Exactly, I'm not saying it wasn't sincere, but I couldn't get all excited about it Like, oh my goodness, kanye's doing gospel now. I can't that it like, oh my goodness, kanye's doing gospel now. That's great, but I got to ask if I'm going to follow a person. I got to know what their intentions are. Where are you leading me? What other community does that, though? What other community? We're the only people that we got a hardcore gangster and we we doing gospel. Then we go back to what other community let us do that?
Speaker 1:Let me know I might be wrong. Let me know.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to think. I'm sure there's somebody.
Speaker 1:Let me know so what happens and it's not even a starting thing that you know say you've been taught like. I'll say this when I went to the current church I don't want to give that name one of the leaders who was no longer there, had talked about you know how in the revelations you know, talked about you being neither hot nor cold. Um, and I was like, okay, so I don't want to be lukewarm, you know lukewarm is bad, but in the but, what he said was that he was taught that you know you should either be hot or cold. There wasn't, you know you, but in reality both had some healing properties. Cooling was refreshing. Where he was more of a, he said that the people in the church need to be either. Some people need to be cold, and I was like, oh man, but the fact that he came out and said, hey, I've been taught this way, I've come to realize it was wrong, I apologize to you all, I was like whoa, let me find out somebody.
Speaker 2:Where they do that at.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, if you, you're in Maryland.
Speaker 2:It's the same pastor who also gave a. He taught the same story about the woman with the issue of blood and he apologized for that too, because I you know. He said I was taught that. You know this woman had to push her way through all these people like the dramatic story that we've all been taught. But then he said when he found out how it actually worked out, it wasn't you know.
Speaker 1:He said when he was taught something differently he had to come back and reteach it, and he had to come back and reteach it and he had to apologize for how he taught it, because he learned that it wasn't accurate. I know the leaders now, some people now they are more open to um being questioned than back in the day. Back in the day he's like uh, I'm, I'm behind this mic, I'm the leader of this, are you don't ask me?
Speaker 2:no question they got to now because ain't nobody going to church. They need something.
Speaker 1:Are we?
Speaker 2:okay with a pastor telling us I don't know, Like if we ask a question and he genuinely says you know, that's a good question.
Speaker 1:Keith.
Speaker 2:I don't know, because that's never happened. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Would you say that? Can you hear, danny?
Speaker 2:I'm saying I've had people say that and to me I respect them even more.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like yo, I don't know, and it's like I can bang with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like the know-it-all who has all the answers, don't really know, you can't really identify the answer. You don't really know, you can't really identify. Every major character in the Bible questioned God, even Jesus. Why have you forsaken me, if there's any way From Adam to Jesus? Then Adam says why are you mad at me? You made her, adam to Jesus. Then Adam says why are you mad at me? You made her. You made her. This garden with this woman. You made her, this woman you made. I think it's normal for us to have questions and I think it's normal for us to just say hey, you know what? I really don't know. Let me just sit with you, let me just have the ministry of presence, let me just, but to do that would then mean I'm vulnerable to let you know I'm human. Yes, I was going to say there's a humility of being human Outside of what we call church. That happens when we're having conversations, sharing a meal at a basketball game, headed to a park or a men's event. That is church. Church happens on Tuesday, on Thursday, on Monday.
Speaker 2:Church isn't just on the weekend.
Speaker 2:Tell them to unlock them doors and let us in during the week, yeah, but we don't need doors. I got my house. You come to me. We'll sit down and break some bread. We'll sit down and talk entrepreneurship. We'll sit down and talk parenting. We'll sit down and talk yo, about the trauma and pain of the past. What I found is vulnerability, begats vulnerability, and so why I? I went back to that verse. They overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimonies. As you start talking about your imperfections and where you used to have been. And I once was lost, but now I'm found. I once was blind, but now I see. Amazing grace, sweet house, sweet. The sound of saying to wretch like me, it's then, that you can talk to people.
Speaker 2:It's then that you can talk to people. It's then that you can show grace to other people instead of pretending to fall holy and stuff. And that falls true to even thinking about. You know even the profession that I'm in, even in therapy, it's been a lot of times where, a lot of times, people come to therapists and say do you have all that? Do you have this answer? Do you have that answer? A lot of times I tell them hey, guess what? My job really is not to give you answers, it's to pull answers out of you that you already have. And sometimes, guess what? I don't have the answers.
Speaker 2:That's why I love being able to practice independently, because we're able to then talk about religion, spirituality, your faith, because what I've been finding out and I've been telling people, you know what A lot of this. You know I can tell you all these theoretical theories, all this stuff and all these these models. You know years I went to school to study all these things and it's good and that's fine and dandy, but you know what a good 40 of this is going to be? Is you talking to god and getting getting god to? You know asking god for, hey, can you open my eyes, can you open my ears to what you want to see me do so? A lot of times I'm telling people hey, don't really look for me for answers. If you have faith and if you have a religion, you need to integrate that back into your life, even in the times that you were having, you know, strife and complication and chaos. Ask God to open your eyes, or open your ears and what he's trying to get you to understand about yourself in this situation as well. As what is God trying to tell you about the situation? And nine times out of 10, guess what they say. You know what that helps because I have God in my corner all the time, not just hey, you know what.
Speaker 2:We're logging into a session for the therapist. No, god is the best therapist out of all therapists, you know. But you got to ask him. You got to ask him hey, give me some discernment, open my eyes, open my ears, help me to stop talking, help me to hear. It has to come from that source first. So you know I'm glad that I'm able to tell people that. But you know, sometimes people don't want to hear that. They want some hardcore facts. But then sometimes then you say well, the reason why things are. You know, sometimes you have a lot of people that have a lot of success and they're doing really well in life and they still feel a certain way. They still feel depressed. It's always something missing. And I think Tom Brady said that. I think he did like a 60 minutes interview one time after. I can't remember which Super Bowl he won or what he said.
Speaker 1:You know, I won it, but I still feel a certain way Don't mean nothing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't mean nothing.
Speaker 1:Because it could all be taken away.
Speaker 2:It could all be taken away, or it's just not as fulfilling as most people think. And that's where that other percentage of you got to get to have that relationship with God. You got to. You have to, ain't no way. I usually when they ask me that question. Aren't you going to solve all my problems? Tell me what I need to do. I'm like my crystal ball is my magic wand.
Speaker 1:Sure don't? They ain't paying that much.
Speaker 2:Right, I don't have to, don't you know? That's God. You know, I'm here to facilitate, that's what I tell them. What did God say?
Speaker 1:because that's what I'm here to facilitate.
Speaker 2:I'm not here to come figure it out for you. You have to do that part, and I have to. Then I will help you facilitate that. So along the way, but in any case, yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:I mean this has been a. This conversation went along the way, but in any case, yeah, it's. I mean this has been a.
Speaker 1:This conversation went where I wanted it to go, but I didn't know how it was going to get there and I appreciate. You know just what y'all have said, the insight but you know, as we always like to wrap things up, it's hard. We could probably do this for hours. Let's talk about anything, everything and all things in between. Y'all have any parting words? As I try to cue up the outro music, I'm not going to put up the graphics. I want people to see your faces as the stuff is going on. Any parting words or thoughts?
Speaker 2:I just want to reiterate for me like study the book of acts if you want to know the church. If you got a problem with church, if you go to the book of acts, you'll see that god probably does too, because he has a system, he's got a structure that he created and that's church. And so don't be mad at what is not church. Go back to the word and understand what God originally designed and intended, and search for a place or create that space where you have that. That is true, that is true. I was going to say something along those lines, so I'll just piggyback and jump in here To you.
Speaker 2:Men, stop waiting for the church to create something for you. Go down to your church, walk in there, ask to speak to somebody and tell them I want to serve. I don't know what I want to do, I don't know how I want to serve yet, but I want to participate. I want to get out here and be active. I know people who are doing parking lot ministry and they love it and all they do is help people park their cars every Sunday.
Speaker 2:So listen, stop waiting for somebody to invite you down and beg you to participate. You tired of sitting on the sideline. Get up and put yourself in a situation where you can meet the people, so you can be a part of the things outside of the church, outside of the four walls. But you can't do it by sitting on your couch judging everybody. Lastly, church hurt is real, it does happen. But just like with anything with work, with school, I got family hurt. My kids drive me crazy. I can't just quit them because they get on my nerves. Sometimes in these environments you're going to have stress and strife. You can't just leave because it gets hard. So that's what I, that's all. I'm going to put a pin in it there and let Steve take over.
Speaker 2:I definitely want to say to our men to let them know it's okay to talk about God. It's okay, it's fine. You know, regardless of what society tells you, you keep certain things hush, hush, a taboo. No, it's okay to talk about God. It's okay to talk about your faith. It's okay to question things. You know as much as we talk about sports, football, basketball stats. You know people's stats that don't even not even alive anymore. You know all these stats. Be able to talk to people about God, too, because that's what's really. That's the most important stat that you need to be talking about, true, so I'll leave it at that.
Speaker 1:And since no one mentioned the ladies, try to use my deep voice. If your man comes up to you and he has some questions about God, or you ask him about church and he may not say, he may say that he doesn't want to go, it's OK to ask why. To ask why.
Speaker 1:Just be prepared when he says why, if you don't understand just the fact that he's willing to communicate that feeling, that thought, know that that is him opening up, being vulnerable and saying, hey, we can talk about this. But just make sure that you give him the time and the space and the place in order to say what's on his mind. Sometimes it might be an experience that he had that had nothing to do with you, nothing to do with the person behind the pulpit, and there are other times it just might be an opportunity where he's just trying to figure out where he fits in and you being his best friend, his mate, his helpmate, that's an opportunity for you to support him. It's okay to question, but just don't put him in a place where he closes up, because it may be a long time till he's willing to open up to you again about religion, because religion really is an intimate conversation. It's like sex it's an intimate conversation, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's it, go ahead. I just said stop shaming people, it don't work, alright.
Speaker 1:We ending with that. I play this outro gonna see our faces. As always, iron table where iron sharpens iron, men sharpens men. We don't own any rights to anything, but we do acknowledge this the gifts of others. Well, it's closing time. We are glad you stayed with us this long. The bill oh, we tore that up, for truth and accountability are free. You want to leave a tip? Sure, we'd take your money. But what's even better is if you share this with someone you know, for there's always room for more at the iron table.
